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~via BB (wap.pinstack.com)~ I agree with you completely on all that, tan. In the unskilled ... Stackers' Lounge forum

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    Re: Unions

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    ~via BB (wap.pinstack.com)~ I agree with you completely on all that, tan. In the unskilled labor market, which is largely populated by uneducated or undereducated workers, that is spot on and there is no question the sense of entitlement Americans tend to have in that economic level is awful. The more educated and specialized the indicial worker, the less that tends to be true. Immigrant or American.

    Some of that is cultural. An immigrant is used to working in an environment where jobs are scarce, and if they lose it, their family starves for a long time until they work again. So when they get here, and in general the wages and conditions are better, they tend to be grateful and loyal.

    If an American doesn't want to show up for their shift at subway, they dlb't care. Their family won't starve because jobs are readily available today, and if its really bad they can get a handout from the governmeny. Once foreign workers get exposed to these benefits they start to do the same things.

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    Re: Unions

    ~via BB (wap.pinstack.com)~ when I was in high school my parents made me work construction for my uncle. I did all the BS jobs the workers didn't want.
    My parents told me that if I didn't want that job after high school, study. At least give myself another option. No disrespect to anyone who does it for a living, because there is definitely a skill involved. I am just glad I learned the lesson and decided to earn other options.

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    Re: Unions

    Quote Originally Posted by LaTuFu
    ~via BB (wap.pinstack.com)~ I agree with you completely on all that, tan. In the unskilled labor market, which is largely populated by uneducated or undereducated workers, that is spot on and there is no question the sense of entitlement Americans tend to have in that economic level is awful. The more educated and specialized the indicial worker, the less that tends to be true. Immigrant or American.

    Some of that is cultural. An immigrant is used to working in an environment where jobs are scarce, and if they lose it, their family starves for a long time until they work again. So when they get here, and in general the wages and conditions are better, they tend to be grateful and loyal.

    If an American doesn't want to show up for their shift at subway, they dlb't care. Their family won't starve because jobs are readily available today, and if its really bad they can get a handout from the governmeny. Once foreign workers get exposed to these benefits they start to do the same things.
    You're 100% right on that.

    What's funny though is how it varies from the immigrant workers who come here to work, and those that remain in their own country and work for an American company. Jabil has 2 plants in Mexico, one in Guadalajara and the other in Chihuahua. After 9/11 the electronics industry was hit so hard many customers like Cisco pulled most of their lines from our American plants and moved them to MX.....well here in our American plants if you ask your people to work OT, most will do it, well in our 2 Mexico plants line managers had to offer workers bags of grocceries to come in for OT....I kid you not....grocceries to entice people to come to work....but here their bretheren will do it for just their wages. Crazy.

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    Re: Unions

    In this day and age there is too much competition for pricey Unions to survive. Toyota pays its workers 35$ as comparisson to 65$+ for Detroits workers. The big three have mounting debt obligations that can spell a disaster for both retirees and the US auto industry. The goldmine truck industry demand is hurting with crude hitting 70$. GM took a 10.5$ billion loss in 05, closed 8 factories and sold some GMAC assets to partically cover the loss. Ford isnt too far behind.
    Chrysler which sold to 36$ billion to daimler benz in 98 was recently aquired by Cerberus for only 7.5 billion (80%). I believe Chrysler will lead the way in the near future with their cost cutting PE owner.
    Last thing anyone wants to see is retirees pension desapearing and government stepping in bailing them out with our tax money.

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    Re: Unions

    I work union, and don't much care for it. I don't take part, and couldn't even tell you who my Union Rep is...However, I am a very family oriented person, I love my family and do as much with them as possible. This last Holiday Season, I work on and around Thanksgiving, Christmas, and New Years Eve. For me, that was heartbreak. Not only did I work those days, but the days before and after also. Because of this, it cut back the time I got to spend with my family, seeing as over Christmas we normally take a trip cross-state.

    I'm not saying that I deserved those days off, at the time I worked for Hollywood Video, and surprisingly, they're pretty busy on those days. One thing I liked about that job, even being non-union, I was still payed time and a half.

    Now, at a Union Job, I had to work on the 4th of July, not a big holiday for most people, but it is my Grandmother's birthday. To compensate for working Holidays, at&t gives the employee's that work Double-Time and a Half for 8 working hours. Those that don't work still get a paid workday.

    This is my only benefit from a Union, otherwise...I don't really notice

    Now, I haven't always had such privilaged jobs either, I have also picked strawberrys, just a one summer thing. My uncle owns his own Carpeting business in Spokane, WA and I helped him duing my "Summer Vacations" the last 5 years of my schooling.
    Last edited by GBallew; 07-30-2007 at 01:53 PM.
    Cingular is now the new at&t

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    Re: Unions

    The fate of the American auto industry is a scary thing. One of my professors in college (just grad. in 9/06) was a former employee of Ford and he broke it down as to how much money the auto industry is losing and it's unbelievable. How the American auto industry will be able to stay in the black and compete with the foreign auto industry is really beyond me. I don't know how they will dig themselves out and I shudder to think of the quality being sacraficed in order to make their bottom line.

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    Re: Unions

    It would be wonderful if American companies were responsible enough to eliminate the need for unions. Teachers, hospital workers, and civil servants depend on the collective bargaining and seniority protection services of their respective unions to give some semblance of job and income security.
    Look at Circuit City - they fired 3400 workers because they made too much money! They made that money due to their years of service and the corporate pay increase scheme. These people could not even apply for their old jobs at a lower rate - they were forced to find other work simply because they did a good job and were loyal.

    That is not to say, however, that unions are a panacea. When 'job protection' means that somebody who is out sick is paid for an hour (or 4 hours) of work because a worker from another job description had to move a palate out of the way is despicable. Manufacturing unions have become nothing more than bullies, taking dues from anybody who wants to work, dictating outside contracts, and at the same time creating lower-paid work categories in order to prevent outsourcing. Nobody wins except the union elite.

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    Re: Unions

    Quote Originally Posted by twieder
    It would be wonderful if American companies were responsible enough to eliminate the need for unions. Teachers, hospital workers, and civil servants depend on the collective bargaining and seniority protection services of their respective unions to give some semblance of job and income security.
    Look at Circuit City - they fired 3400 workers because they made too much money! They made that money due to their years of service and the corporate pay increase scheme. These people could not even apply for their old jobs at a lower rate - they were forced to find other work simply because they did a good job and were loyal.

    That is not to say, however, that unions are a panacea. When 'job protection' means that somebody who is out sick is paid for an hour (or 4 hours) of work because a worker from another job description had to move a palate out of the way is despicable. Manufacturing unions have become nothing more than bullies, taking dues from anybody who wants to work, dictating outside contracts, and at the same time creating lower-paid work categories in order to prevent outsourcing. Nobody wins except the union elite.
    The unfortunate part about economics is that at some point, a philosophical or fundamental discussion about "the economy" and "what's most efficient" usually means that at the bottom of every discussion, individuals are negatively effected in the short term.

    The Circuit City example, it is true that 3,400 people were laid off. There are a ton of moving parts to that equation, however. (CC is headquartered in Virginia, not too far from here). In some ways, they suffer from the same poor management culture that the Big 3 automakers do. However, one way to look at the 3,400 jobs eliminated is that it saved untold thousands of other jobs in the company, at least temporarily. Either CC learns and adapts to the market or it goes the way of Sears and K-Mart. Individually, those 3,400 are certainly affected negatively, and some may not ever get jobs approaching the level of compensation they had at Circuit City. Most, however, will recover and move on to something else if they have any desire to do so.
    If I knew where I was going, I might already be there. -- Cross Canadian Ragweed.

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    Re: Unions

    I'm not going to get into a long political discussion about this because it hurts my brain. I just wanted to share the viewpoint of a "captive brother". I did not see the point of a union before I was hired for my current job, which is a closed shop, meaning no non-union labor. I am a member of 2 unions now, and can't tell you what either of them has done for me. I have never been fired for breaking rules or refusing to work, so the unions have no interest in me other than my dues. The only thing I can see that the union does for me, other than decide which benefits to give back to the company in exchange for less money in my pocket. Yeah you read that right, they give away my benefits, and negotiate lower pay. Thanks. Oh, and before you ask, Teamster and AFLCIO.
    The above commentary is for entertainment purposes only. If this was actual joke the tone you just heard would have been followed by emergency response information. It's supposed to be fun people.

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    Re: Unions

    ~via BB (wap.pinstack.com)~wow...what a non-union party this turned out to be!....unfortunate to see so many intelligent people with an economic understanding, and yet so little example for the benefit, both past and present, derived from a unionized workplace. A simple study of an employer such as Wal Mart would present a strong argument for unionizing the workplace of a bad employer. Therein lies the basis for unions in the workplace. As a union business rep in the food industry in Canada,I can tell you that the role of a unionized workplace has, in an effective union shop, taken on a different role. There are good and bad examples of unions as well as bad employers.A bad union or inaffective union, would be one which fails to recognize the economic position of the company for which their members are working An employer such as Wal Mart which continues to thrive on the backs of their workers, who are underpaid, overworked, have no benefits, no paid health care, and absolutly no job security at all.Nothing which would prevent them from being replaced by a younger,seemingly more able bodied person, at a much lesser start rate.The mere idea of full time jobs could become a thing of the past if employers are not held to guidlines and job asurances, as outlined in a collective agreement. This topic is an age old argument. People who either benefited or continue to benefit from a unionized environment, are in a better position to see the upside of an organized workplace. There is certainly enough of an argument against unions, as is evident here, but some education and experience may help to change that way of thinking. No disrespect meant, here. Just one persons opinion on a certain topic.

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    Re: Unions

    ~via BB (wap.pinstack.com)~~wow...what a non-union party this turned out to be!....unfortunate to see so many intelligent people with an economic understanding, and yet so little example for the benefit, both past and present, derived from a unionized workplace. A simple study of an employer such as Wal Mart would present a strong argument for unionizing the workplace of a bad employer. Therein lies the basis for unions in the workplace. As a union business rep in the food industry in Canada,I can tell you that the role of a unionized workplace has, in an effective union shop, taken on a different role. There are good and bad examples of unions as well as bad employers.A bad union or inaffective union, would be one which fails to recognize the economic position of the company for which their members are working An employer such as Wal Mart which continues to thrive on the backs of their workers, who are underpaid, overworked, have no benefits, no paid health care, and absolutly no job security at all.Nothing which would prevent them from being replaced by a younger,seemingly more able bodied person, at a much lesser start rate.The mere idea of full time jobs could become a thing of the past if employers are not held to guidlines and job asurances, as outlined in a collective agreement. This topic is an age old argument. People who either benefited or continue to benefit from a unionized environment, are in a better position to see the upside of an organized workplace. There is certainly enough of an argument against unions, as is evident here, but some education and experience may help to change that way of thinking. No disrespect meant, here. Just one persons opinion on a certain topic.

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    Re: Unions

    Yeah, this is where the thread can start to unravel. Further education and experience will show you that unionization has the effect of increasing unemployment and lowering wages, by virtue of the fact that they force higher wages than the market will bear. Proven over and over again through the same histories you are quoting. Every time Unions attempt to organize Wal-Mart employees, they are voted out by the employees they attempt to "organize". 125 years ago when workers had no voice and no ability to challenge the status quo, organized labor had a place. Today, organized labor is as bureaucratic, bloated, and inefficient as the organizations they supposedly exist to fight against.

    Anyway, definitely not the place to blow this up. Agree to disagree, have a nice day. We share Berries in common.

    I get even MORE free market when I am loaded. Wow...
    If I knew where I was going, I might already be there. -- Cross Canadian Ragweed.

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    Re: Unions

    have one on me bruh
    The above commentary is for entertainment purposes only. If this was actual joke the tone you just heard would have been followed by emergency response information. It's supposed to be fun people.

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    Re: Unions

    I gotta be done. Breakfast with the President of my Division at 0630 tomorrow. Classes start at 0745, go until 1800 tomorrow. Yeah I went military time on you. I am shifty like that.
    If I knew where I was going, I might already be there. -- Cross Canadian Ragweed.

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    Re: Unions

    Ya know.. when I saw the subject of this thread and who the person starting it was - for some reason I thought it would have to do with the legality of same sex marriages in Illinois.

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