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Originally Posted by j llama You sir, have been spoon fed. ++ Right slams Obama ... Stackers' Lounge forum

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    Quote Originally Posted by j llama View Post
    You sir, have been spoon fed.
    ++
    Right slams Obama as 'shady Chicago socialist'
    February 17, 2008
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle3382313.ece
    "Leading Republicans believe they can trounce Barack Obama in the presidential election by tarring him as a shady Chicago socialist. They are increasingly confident that his campaign could collapse by the time their attack machine has finished with him"
    ++

    I am probably going to make people mad on all four sides in this thread.
    I enjoy debate.

    BTW, why is Universal Healthcare bad? There are millions of people in this country that cannot afford healthcare.

    Comparing Canada and USA healthcare.
    "Studies have come to different conclusions about the result of this disparity in spending. A 2007 review of all studies comparing health outcomes in Canada and the U.S., in a Canadian peer-reviewed medical journal, found that "health outcomes may be superior in patients cared for in Canada versus the United States, but differences are not consistent."[7] Life expectancy is longer in Canada, and its infant mortality rate is lower than that of the U.S"

    Through all entities in its public-private system, the U.S. spends more per capita than any other nation in the world,[11] but is the only wealthy industrialized country in the world that lacks some form of universal health care.[12]
    OK josh,

    first of all show me where i said that universal healthcare was bad. i said that it will NEVER work in this country because: There are too many people living here, there are too many people that DON'T pay taxes, and they would have to raise the income tax rate to high to support it. Plus it would mean sub standard care. Do you think that doctors are going to pay for 4 years of med school if they know that the government is charge of their pay? I dont think so.

    Second, I live in Chicago and Obama is shady. One of his biggest fund raisers, Yony Rezko, has just been indicted in 15 counts of shady deals (google it).

    Answer me this, is a government run program ever, ever a positive thing for anyone?

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    Well free cheese was pretty good but yeah, for the most part you are right about big bro programs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by j llama View Post
    Ok, so maybe the healthcare debate isn't as fun as the War debate.

    hmph
    Trust me, J, I know everyone thinks UHC is a panacea and silver bullet, yadda, yadda, yadda, but if it actually worked on any level better than a free market system, it would have been implemented long ago.

    Its important to note that "every other industrialized nation" that has UHC is not a true free market democracy. They're either an outright socialist government or a hybrid socialist government/somewhat market oriented economy.

    UHC has a HUGE cost that no one will acknowledge during the debate about it. Its bad enough as an American taxpayer to have to pay 25-35% income taxes, on top of 7.5% FICA (In addition to the 7.5% my employer has to pay on my behalf, in effect an additional 7.5% I don't get to keep) whatever amount in sales taxes and state income taxes, property taxes, etc. Add it all up and a W-2 wager earner in America is paying 45-50% of their income into some form of tax. If I am a business owner, its closer to 55-60%.

    Why do I want to turn into a Canadian/British/French/German and make it 60%-70%? And reduce the productivity of my economy?

    We can debate merits and demerits of many things. One thing that is absolute fact and not arguable: There has never been, in the recorded history of time, any function of an economy that has been handled more efficiently by a Government Entity. Yes, the free market system has its problems, and it does need checks and balances, but the overwhelming advantages to the positive make me wonder why anyone ever thinks the Government is the answer to any problem.

    Katrina. Who got the necessary supplies in to New Orleans at the most critical time? FEMA? No. Wal-Mart, Lowe's, and Home Depot. (Despite the fact that the minute local law enforcement no longer controlled the streets these stores were looted to the ground by its citizens) And enterprising individuals who took it on themselves to get in there and help. The FEMA purchased trailers are probably STILL rotting in a field in Arkansas somewhere.
    Last edited by LaTuFu; 06-11-2008 at 04:47 PM.
    If I knew where I was going, I might already be there. -- Cross Canadian Ragweed.

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    My Brain hurts now. Well I never looked at the down side of UHC, you guys make excellent points.
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    hahahahaha. Didn't mean to injure your brain.

    Next beer is on me.

    Welcome to the Cynical Libertarian side. We can't change the world. We can sit back, have a homebrew and wish we could.
    If I knew where I was going, I might already be there. -- Cross Canadian Ragweed.

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    is that all it takes to be a libertarian? ****, i might convert.

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    I keep meaning to try and brew my own beer, just never got around to it.
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    And now for something completely different......







    http://www.barelypolitical.com/
    Last edited by GaryF; 06-11-2008 at 07:34 PM.
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    Some people seem to forget that Congress makes the laws, the President can only suggest, sign, or veto legislation. We all know that the big medical lobbies will not allow any form of universal healthcare that could impact their bottom line.

    That does not mean, however, that we should have a president that rolls over to them. Our president should be idealistic. Our president should want the health and safety of every American to be paramount. Our president should want us out of Iraq. Whether any of these are feasable is irrelevant -- if our leader is not dreaming of a better America, how can the Senate, or the House, or the American people.

    We need this UHC discussion in America. Healthcare costs are out of control. Those least able to lose a days pay are those most likely to not have access to medical treatment. Any progress is better than what we have now. We know that any healthcare legislation is a compromise. Picture this:
    You want a raise, but you know your boss will reject your first offer outright. So you ask for twice what you expect to get, and chances are you will get pretty close to that number. We need a president that will ask for twice the healthcare we need.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaTuFu View Post
    We need a true Libertarian candidate, with a legitimate shot of winning.
    Agreed, although I don't see this happening for a while. The American people are a bunch of apathetic fools. We've become Rome and the end is near.




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    Ron Paul is now using his contribution money to hopefully create more Libertarian minded Republicans in the future rather than run for Prez himself this time around.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cwax View Post
    Agreed, although I don't see this happening for a while. The American people are a bunch of apathetic fools. We've become Rome and the end is near.
    And all Empires decline some day.

    Gibbon's engrossing "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" is online.

    More than 100 years ago Rudyard Kipling wrote a poem about the decline of
    the British Empire. Reeking tube and iron shard.




    Recessional
    God of our fathers, known of old--
    Lord of our far-flung battle line
    Beneath whose awful hand we hold
    Dominion over palm and pine--
    Lord God of Hosts, be with us yet,
    Lest we forget - lest we forget!


    The tumult and the shouting dies;
    The captains and the kings depart:
    Still stands Thine ancient sacrifice,
    An humble and a contrite heart.
    Lord God of Hosts, be with us yet,
    Lest we forget - lest we forget!


    Far-called, our navies melt away;
    On dune and headland sinks the fire:
    Lo, all our pomp of yesterday
    Is one with Nineveh and Tyre!
    Judge of the Nations, spare us yet,
    Lest we forget - lest we forget!


    If, drunk with sight of power, we loose
    Wild tongues that have not Thee in awe--
    Such boasting as the Gentiles use
    Or lesser breeds without the law--
    Lord God of Hosts, be with us yet,
    Lest we forget - lest we forget!


    For heathen heart that puts her trust
    In reeking tube and iron shard--
    All valiant dust that builds on dust,
    And guarding, calls not Thee to guard--
    For frantic boast and foolish word,
    Thy mercy on Thy people, Lord.





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    ~via BB (wap.pinstack.com)~ Obama's participation in the Joyce Foundation makes him unfit for any any office of any kind.

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