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Verizon wireless is getting the 8800 in the second Q way ahead of what is ... Blackberry 8800 & 8820 forum

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    jr_sy's Avatar
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    Smile Apple (iPhone) Cingy deal= better for BB owners everywhere?

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    Verizon wireless is getting the 8800 in the second Q way ahead of what is expected of a CDMA carrrier, Apple's "rich financial terms" and other demands were the primary reasons that Verizon Wireless, the No. 2 cellphone carrier in the US, passed on the chance to be the exclusive distributor of the iPhone almost two years ago. The USA Today reported that Apple wanted a percentage of the monthly cellphone fees as well as a say over how and where iPhones could be sold. This hints at just how much Apple was, and remains today, in the driver's seat when it came to a potential iPhone deal. While Cingular does have a multi-year exclusive deal with Apple to sell the device, Apple has been responsible for defining the phone's specifications, setting the price, and building the user interface. Apple is also responsible for the decision to not allow any 3rd party applications to be installed on the iPhone, as well as the decision to not include 3G data support in the initial iPhone. The fact that there will only be only on-screen AT&T or AT&T/Cingular branding, and no such markings on the exterior of the iPhone, also shows that this really is Apple's baby, and that Cingular is just happy to have been invited to tag along for the ride.

    The contract covers "all models" of the iPhone, including several other devices in the works that may be "coming out very quickly," Lurie said. His comment addressed in part a criticism that the iPhone doesn't use Cingular's new high-speed HSDPA network.


    That isn't true worldwide, as Cingular only exists in the US. Apple is free to seek other partners for global distribution, he said. And Apple is also free to build other iPods without phone capability that won't be sold through Cingular—though he was unclear on whether a Wi-Fi only version of the iPhone would fall under Cingular's thumb.

    Apple CEO Steve Jobs insisted that he have hard control over iPhone distribution as well as sole discretion on warranty and replacement issues.

    Getting the calculators out ...If Apple only makes a one-time profit of $50 per unit, and never another cent in the future, we're talking $1.25 billion in profits in 2007. According to Yahoo finance, their trailing 12 months earnings are $1.88 billion -- so if these projections are accurate, this could mean a 66% increase in earnings due to the iPhone!

    The 5-year agreement for Cingular means no other carrier in the US will be able to sell it until this expires. This has been reported elsewhere , although always with the reservation that it's unofficial (neither Apple nor Cingular want to disclose the terms). RIM can only limit itself here. The more carriers that are offered the more they stand to make off it. I cant imagine apple buffs completely ducking out of a contract with say Verizon (SPRINT, T-MO) to switch to Cingular just for a phone, especially with the great service and/or features of other carriers.

    Saying all this because of earnings RIM must start selling future BB across all carriers equally... if not ... and Come with the 9xxx series before the end of 2007 anything that comes after the iPhone will look outdated (interface, etc.) RIM has to impress everyone from the 8800 series on. And this is the simple and humble point of my post...

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    wclyffe's Avatar
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    Re: Apple (iPhone) Cingy deal= better for BB owners everywhere?

    jr sy...great post, and I agree with much of what you said, except one point: "I can't imagine apple buffs completely ducking out of a contract with say Verizon (SPRINT, T-MO) to switch to Cingular just for a phone, especially with the great service and/or features of other carriers."

    I think you are wrong on this point. People will sell their current phones and ipods and just combine the two into one easy-to-carry device. Also, as you said, Apple is likely to unveil several models over the course of the contract with ATT. It is forseeable that that will include faster speeds, larger onboard memory, and many more innovative features. Lastly, RIM has been just short of terrible in its servicing of Mac users of the Blackberry. What every Windows user takes for granted (a desktop manager, easy to sync, OS upgrades) is badly reproduced for the Mac platform. Have you ever tried to sync with PocketMac? Do you realize Mac users have to upgrade their OS on a Windows machine? It will leave you wondering why RIM adopted this software (PocketMac). Apple fans will depart the Blackberry in mass just to get all their data to relate to the phone they carry. The reason so many people are talking and comparing to the upcoming iPhone is because it has set the new standard. It will be sold out and backordered for sometime.

    I think RIM needs to make a very solid effort to attract and service Mac users. They have great phones, and even better ones coming, and they are ahead of Apple in delivering those phones. Reach out to Mac users of the Pearl, the 8800, and on and RIM will be keeping many current users for years to come.

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    archer6's Avatar
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    Re: Apple (iPhone) Cingy deal= better for BB owners everywhere?

    Mac users have no impact on business in the US or the rest of the world. Therefore they are not a threat to anyone.

    I'm not bashing them just stating the facts as they relate to the big picture globally.

    I hope their new phone is a success. That said it will never be more than a niche product no matter how good it is.

    Samsung is just one of the much larger mfgs that can crush Apple at their whim, in the cell phone space.

    As a long time Mac enthusiast, MacBook Pro & iPod user, I have watched Apple's many blunders all based on the ego-centric culture & elitest attitude they cling to.

    They began (as Apple Computer Inc.) with a very innovative line of computers & blew that.

    Then "reinvented" themselves as Apple Inc. The entertainment company.

    It's only a matter of time before that venture collapses or shrinks & then what?

    On the other hand, RIM has been very wise & targeted big enterprize. Developed a world-class product which has a terrific track record, & is not about to fail.

    As they enter the consumer market, they go in with a lot of momentum. While not perfect, they will succeed.
    ~via BB (wap.pinstack.com)~

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    wclyffe's Avatar
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    Arrow Re: Apple (iPhone) Cingy deal= better for BB owners everywhere?

    Quote Originally Posted by archer6
    Mac users have no impact on business in the US or the rest of the world. Therefore they are not a threat to anyone.

    I'm not bashing them just stating the facts as they relate to the big picture globally.

    I hope their new phone is a success. That said it will never be more than a niche product no matter how good it is.

    Samsung is just one of the much larger mfgs that can crush Apple at their whim, in the cell phone space.

    As a long time Mac enthusiast, MacBook Pro & iPod user, I have watched Apple's many blunders all based on the ego-centric culture & elitest attitude they cling to.

    They began (as Apple Computer Inc.) with a very innovative line of computers & blew that.

    Then "reinvented" themselves as Apple Inc. The entertainment company.

    It's only a matter of time before that venture collapses or shrinks & then what?

    On the other hand, RIM has been very wise & targeted big enterprize. Developed a world-class product which has a terrific track record, & is not about to fail.

    As they enter the consumer market, they go in with a lot of momentum. While not perfect, they will succeed.
    ~via BB (wap.pinstack.com)~
    Archer6...some of what you say makes sense, but other parts not for me. Apple stock was a great buy a few years back...try and touch it now. They have consistently taken market share every year. Granted, it is still small in the whole marketplace, but I would rather have it that way..less issues like viruses, etc. RIM is a great company with great product, but it would take very little effort to create the software that would include the Mac user base. I think its short-sighted on their part.

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    Re: Apple (iPhone) Cingy deal= better for BB owners everywhere?

    Quote Originally Posted by jr_sy
    Saying all this because of earnings RIM must start selling future BB across all carriers equally... if not ... and Come with the 9xxx series before the end of 2007 anything that comes after the iPhone will look outdated (interface, etc.) RIM has to impress everyone from the 8800 series on. And this is the simple and humble point of my post...
    Apple will be a contender to deal with. I don't underestimate the power of the Apple hype machine and the rabidness of its fanboys. That said, they do have some excellent products and it's no wonder the iPod is the music device. However, I don't see them setting the benchmark for all wireless devices out there. The iPhone introduces some really nice features but again, it's apples and oranges when you compare the iPhone and Blackberry or even other wireless devices out there. Still, hopefully Apple will get other manufacturers to rethink their neglect of product and interface design. Why haven't we had visual voicemail before?? That's the kind of positive influence that I feel Apple will bring to the marketplace.

    You're (like many others) once again forgetting the Blackberry's roots. It needs to remain first and foremost a reliable push email device. This is what really separates it from the pack. Yes, there are other devices out there with full qwerty keyboards that can email but a pretty case, qwerty keyboard and POP email client isn't competitive with Blackberry and the other manufacturers still haven't figured this out.

    The other important pillar of the Blackberry is the millions and millions of corporate-deployed Blackberries out there. These companies and government and military entities rely on the Blackberry for a number of good reasons (security, device management, etc) and have invested in the infrastructure. They're certainly not going to ditch it for the iPhone or even other better suited smartphones which have yet to match these capabilities.

    Plus, there are plenty of users who will go with what works after they get over the initial new toy affection and Steve Job's (or anyone else's) Kool Aid. Take a look at how many "Blackberry killers" have come and gone over the past decade or more... You'll find plenty of users here and on other Blackberry forums that have been lured by the Q or the latest Treo or the Blackjack or whatever only to return once they realize what features really matter.

    Speaking of which, the iPhone is not a Blackberry killer. However, RIM does need to work on meeting the needs of the consumers it is trying to appeal to but there is plenty of room in the marketplace for companies that aren't Apple. For one thing, very few people can even afford the iPhone no matter how pretty its interface is. On forum sites like this we tend to forget that the majority of cell phone users out there are actually using freebie Nokias (which are actually excellent phones) or their equivalents.

    We'll have to see how usable the iPhone interface is in day-to-day real world use but I wouldn't bet on a touch screen being suitable for heavy emailers or texters. It will work for some and the multi-touch screen is a nifty feature as well as the automatic orientation sensor. However, these features are gravy and not the "meat" of a serious device.

    As far as releasing devices across all carriers -- that's up to the carriers themselves. There are a number of carriers that don't even have agreements in place with RIM to offer Blackberry data services. Whether or not a carrier gets exclusive release rights depends on what they're willing to pay. Can you to back up your assumption that this affects their sales? Devices have been released to other carriers after the 90 day window and the hype has always maintained enough momentum as other carriers release a new model as it is made available to them. Just look at how Verizon customers still look forward to new Blackberries even though VZW is always so slow to introduce new BB's.

    Anyway, that's enough of the armchair wireless industry analyst game for me. Nothing I've said is fact, just my opinion based on my experiences and what I've seen. I'm not so jaded that I think that the Blackberry is invulnerable to market changes but it's going to take more, much more, than just cosmetic changes and hype to topple it. In any case, this is all really just pointless navel comtemplation until we have some actual release iPhones to look at and compare. I guarantee that the iPhone won't be perfect as people expect it to be from the hype. Nothing's perfect on initial release and there will be bugs and issues and oversights that will need to be worked out.

    Quote Originally Posted by jr_sy
    Getting the calculators out ...If Apple only makes a one-time profit of $50 per unit, and never another cent in the future, we're talking $1.25 billion in profits in 2007.
    Where is this coming from? You can't just pull numbers out of the air (or wherever you're pulling them from) in support of Apple. There's no telling what sales of a $600 device like this will be. I'm sure Apple would love to sell 25 million units but only time will tell. Nor is there any clue as to what Apple's profit margin is. There's certainly not a flat per-unit profit considering the R&D costs on top of everything else.

    Quote Originally Posted by jr_sy
    I cant imagine apple buffs completely ducking out of a contract with say Verizon (SPRINT, T-MO) to switch to Cingular just for a phone, especially with the great service and/or features of other carriers.
    You clearly don't understand Apple fanboys...
    Last edited by takeshi; 02-14-2007 at 04:40 PM.

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    Arrow Re: Apple (iPhone) Cingy deal= better for BB owners everywhere?

    takeshi...great post, very smart. The only thing I think you left out is that as RIM moves over from its coporate, government markets with product lines like the Pearl, it will encounter stiffer competition..the iPhone being one of them.

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    archer6's Avatar
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    Re: Apple (iPhone) Cingy deal= better for BB owners everywhere?

    Quote Originally Posted by wclyffe
    Archer6...some of what you say makes sense, but other parts not for me. Apple stock was a great buy a few years back...try and touch it now. They have consistently taken market share every year. Granted, it is still small in the whole marketplace, but I would rather have it that way..less issues like viruses, etc. RIM is a great company with great product, but it would take very little effort to create the software that would include the Mac user base. I think its short-sighted on their part.
    Yes, you do bring up a very good point about the stock price currently. In addition, as we both know one of their strengths is exemplary industrial design, combined with stellar simplicity.

    Regarding RIM and Mac, that too is a point that I agree with. Especially in the case of including the Mac users, as it would not be that difficult or expensive for RIM to include those users with the appropriate software interface.

    In the final analysis, I must admit that I'm a bit miffed at Apple for some blown opportunities in the past, opportunities that were simply too easy for a well organized company to miss. It would be nice to see them continue to grow and prosper as the more competition & diversity the better.

    Cheers...


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    Re: Apple (iPhone) Cingy deal= better for BB owners everywhere?

    takeshi...

    Kudos for a well thought out and comprehensive post. I found your points very stimulating and thought provoking.

    Cheers...


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    Re: Apple (iPhone) Cingy deal= better for BB owners everywhere?

    Great post by all...Personally I really don't see the iphone as a blackberry killer...I do see it though really cutting into the smartphone's market..such the moto Q, the blackjack and so on...as posted above and through personal use the smartphones are a huge disappointment when coming over from a blackberry, especially the email reliability.
    I don't see big corporations, government and such that depend on email, jumping ship to go with a shiney & pretty overpriced, and untested device. There is really no need for companies to spend $600 on a device, when a blackberry can do the same thing even better for 1/3 of the price.

    Just my 2 cents.

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    Re: Apple (iPhone) Cingy deal= better for BB owners everywhere?

    It will be interesting to see how the iPhone email service pans out.
    Build a man a fire and he shall be warm for the night. Catch a man on fire and he shall be warm for the rest of his life!

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    Re: Apple (iPhone) Cingy deal= better for BB owners everywhere?

    nextelman197-

    I agree with the excellent point you make about the impact on other smartphones. Which brings to mind the age old Microsoft vs Apple argument.

    To all-
    Thanks for all the great, well thought out posts that have caused this thread to migrate from a lot of critical emotional outbursts, to a very intelligent discussion about the future of mobile communications, work & entertainment.

    Cheers...
    ~via BB (wap.pinstack.com)~

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