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In a lawsuit recently filed in Toronto, the Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce (CIBC) submitted ... General Blackberry forum

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    pins can be traced

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    In a lawsuit recently filed in Toronto, the Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce (CIBC) submitted multiple messages sent on Blackberry wireless handheld devices as evidence that several former executives misappropriated confidential information from the bank and attempted to recruit others while they were still employees at the bank.The messages in question include "PIN messages", which are sent between BlackBerry users through each others' personal identification numbers rather than through the users' e-mail addresses. This method is generally regarded by BlackBerry users as more private than using e-mail addresses. Where e-mail messages travel through e-mail providers' servers and are copied and kept, PIN messages (like SMS or instant messages) are sent directly from one BlackBerry device to another. Therefore, users often use PIN messages to send personal or highly sensitive information.That CIBC is using PIN messages will startle most BlackBerry users, but the reality is that technology exists to allow companies to log PIN messages. While it has not been regularly used in the past, it is increasingly being used by financial services companies and government organizations to log BlackBerry communications. It's not a new phenomenon—many people are still learning that e-mail messages and peer-to-peer file sharing, which seem to many users to be private communications, can be tracked because they pass through intermediate servers on their way between communicating parties. So while it may startle BlackBerry users that their PIN messages can be traced, it should not surprise them.

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    Re: pins can be traced

    They had to be on a BES. If you're BlackBerry is connected to a BES, anything on it is fair game. I don't think it's possible with BIS - it doesn't have the means or security levels required.
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    JerryD

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    Re: pins can be traced

    ~via BB (wap.pinstack.com)~

    I agree, by the sounds of the description in the article, the tracing surely has to be on a BES. However, that doesn't mean my PIN conversations can't be traced just because I am on a BIS - it isn't as though I can't communicate with users who are on a BES and who may have tracking for incoming and/or outgoing messages...

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    Re: pins can be traced

    Someones watching me
    ~via BB (wap.pinstack.com)~

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    Re: pins can be traced

    the crackberry addicted that lives in the cardboard box down the street...waiting for you to put down the phone so they can snatch it up

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    Re: pins can be traced

    Don't PIN messages HAVE to go through an intermediate server, regardless of whether or not you're using BIS or BES? I can't imagine how one BlackBerry can route messages to another any other way.

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    Re: pins can be traced

    PIN messages dont hit the BES

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    Re: pins can be traced

    Well even if one was being extra careful I think this is just proof that if its digital someone has access to it. But I don't think everyone should get all paranoid and presume that what you send is readily available. It could be as simple as they managed to get a hold of one person or persons BlackBerry(s) he was messaging and simply traced the messages back to him based on contact name, email, and/or pin. ~via my sweet piece of BLACKBERRY 8830 goodness (wap.pinstack.com)~

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    Re: pins can be traced

    Quote Originally Posted by cwax
    PIN messages dont hit the BES
    That doesn't make any sense. The PIN is just an address -- there has to be routing logic somewhere that allows the BB to reach another BB via the address. Can't PINs also be transferred from one phone to another? That would certainly preclude a BB from reaching another BB via PIN without consulting a server.

    I guess maybe I just don't understand how PIN routing works. Can someone explain how it's done if messages aren't routed through a server?

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    Re: pins can be traced

    The way to think about it, whether BIS or BES, EMail or PIN is this. You have a carrier network, if you have a 8100 with Vodafone on BES, firstly the email goes to Vodafone for billing, it is then passed on to the wireless network. On BIS the email goes to the carrier network the wireless network. With PIN, the carrier is not used, it goes direct to wireless network.
    In this day and age of "Big Brother is watching you", people would be fools in thinking that their is no audit trial setup on the technology being used. The carrier may not have content auditing enabled as they may just concentrate on the billing, the wireless network may well have content audit enabled.
    Quick example "a very stupid and foolish friend sent a PIN to an ex, it contained certain words that could implicate him in an atrocity". He received a very official email back from a moderator team mentioning that his device was being tracked for content. Do they know what we are typing and sending, ofcourse they do.
    Simon Minshall
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    Re: pins can be traced

    You don't need a BES to pin message, but I think you do need one to log the messages. I have also never seen a pin transfered to another BB. I'm pretty sure it can't be done.

    ~via BB (wap.pinstack.com)~

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    Re: pins can be traced

    Quote Originally Posted by DCookSta
    You don't need a BES to pin message, but I think you do need one to log the messages. I have also never seen a pin transfered to another BB. I'm pretty sure it can't be done.

    ~via BB (wap.pinstack.com)~
    Exactly!

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    Re: pins can be traced

    I'm still curious -- how does the PIN to PIN messaging work? How is the leap from PIN to an actual phone made?

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    Re: pins can be traced

    Quote Originally Posted by xienze
    I'm still curious -- how does the PIN to PIN messaging work? How is the leap from PIN to an actual phone made?
    http://blackberryforums.pinstack.com..._answered.html

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    Re: pins can be traced

    ~via BB (wap.pinstack.com)~
    Wow I thought it was common knowledge that pin messaging was unsecure. It transfers in plain text so anyone can read it if its intercepted.

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